Greg's Game Last Tuesday
Thursday, 23 December 2004 03:02![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipitfishI played twice last week in Greg's game. I guess because he'd been out of town recently, he decided to host two games last week, both NL HE, on Tuesday and Thursday. His standard NL HE game is $1/$2 blinds with a $140 initial maximum buy-in, which increases to "half the largest stack" as stacks go past $280.
The Tuesday game started rather passively, as the NL games at Greg's tend to. Occasionally, Joe will be looking to double up early and induce action, but he wasn't playing that way last Tuesday. Doug, a very experienced local player who has placed in WSOP (World Series of Poker) events, but doesn't often have time to come to Greg's game, was there.
I generally like playing against Doug, since he's a strong player and I feel I can learn something from him. Like far too many good poker players, he's a big arrogant and insults people whom he knows can outplay. That's something I do dislike because it scares away fish (the "standard" reason), but more importantly because I think there's no reason to condescend to people and treat them badly just because you are better than they at one particular activity. So, that's a part of Doug I really don't like, but I think he's a funny guy who has his heart in the right place most of the time, and don't mind too terribly spending time with him.
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nick_marden showed up right at the start of the game, which is out of character for him, as he usually has to go home to take care of things after work before coming out to poker. It was fun to play with him the whole night, although I think, as you'll see shortly, it wasn't particularly fun for him.
A good group of usual suspects were there, including Jon (big Jon, not the younger Jon who sometimes comes), Greg (our illustrious host, who decided to play most of the night), Steven (who came a bit late), Joe, Don (whom I'll forever associate with the television show Family Guy, because the first time I played with him, he kept saying a Quagmire-style "Alll-Right" the entire night) and a few others.
Trash vs. Trash against Doug
Early on, I won a modest but decent pot against against Doug. I tend to play somewhat loose early in that game, since as soon as a few people get some chips, the bets tend to be pretty large in relation to stack size. Therefore, I am looking for spots where I can find flops that force someone to double me up. Similar to Joe's style for the game; however, I play loose only preflop and try to out-flop people. This may not be the best strategy, but I feel that early looseness pays off in these maximum-buy-in NL games.
I picked up 6
9 in middle position. I decided to limp behind one limper, expecting the pot to likely develop multi-way as many early in the night had done so. Jon limped, and Greg raised making it $8 to go. Doug cold-called, the blinds and the limper ahead of me folded. I knew Jon would call, so I decided to call for 1-to-4.66 odds and the implied odds that I could double through someone with the right flop, particularly with Jon in the pot.
The flop came down 5 J
8
. Now in first position, I checked, as did Jon and Greg (the preflop raiser). Doug bet out $10, which seemed pretty weak to me. Doug tends to bet relatively larger than that into multi-way pots when he's sure he has the best hand. It was somewhat possible he was slow-playing some sort of monster, but I felt it was much more likely that he was weak. He'd played almost every hand since arriving, and I felt he was likely to play loose and bet any weak Jack or an 8 in that situation. I really began to feel he held only an 8.
I decided to call. The pot offered me only 1-to-4.4, but I felt that if Doug had an 8, I have seven outs twice, because he'd probably check the turn with an 8. If he had a J, I have 4 outs (the 7s). Also, if I caught, I figured he'd pay off a modest bet with just an 8, and if I could more definitely put him on a jack, he'd probably pay off a much bigger bet if my outs came.
The turn was the K, and I checked. As I suspected, Doug checked behind me. I felt he'd bet to protect a jack, figuring the K was more of a scare card to me than him. So, when he checked, I was quite sure he didn't have a Jack. He'd been betting an 8 on the flop.
The river fell 9
. I checked my pair, wondering how much Doug would now bet into me. He bet $40, which was 3/4ths of the pot. This seemed strange. There's no reason to bet a Jack there, since it can't call a check-raise, but is probably the best hand. I'm now sure he's bet an 8 to make sure he preserved the pot for himself if I held a 9; in fact, he's a good enough player to put me on a straight draw that might include a 9 (such as T9). I call with my 9, and he says: "an 8". I waited for him to show 8 4 (as I wanted to see it before he had a chance to muck it) before exposing my weak 9 and saying: "Yeah, I put you on an 8; I have a 9".
The table seemed flabbergasted. They don't think of me as that loose, and they don't understand how I could call that. I really felt that my read was right, and was willing to play based solely on that. He'd have bet if he had a King or Jack on the turn, so it had to be an 8 that he'd bet on the flop and the river. No holding made much sense, except maybe pocket 9s, but I think he'd have bet a bit less on the river to entice a call. Indeed, Doug went into this tale about how I'd once said I'd have called with an Ace high in some pot or other for $20 but not for $40, and he thus thought "$40 was my limit for calling with marginal holdings". Fortunately, I'm not as simplistic a player as he thinks, or perhaps he's just setting me up for a more complicated play in two months; he's capable of that, of course.
Losing My Stack to Avi's Flush
The only set I flopped the whole night cost me my whole stack. There was a near family pot of 7 limpers into a pot where I held 6 6 in middle position. Avi was UTG+1. We all saw a flop of J 6 2.
I was pretty sure a flush draw had to be out, given the large multi-way pot, so slow-playing was surely a mistake. A raise on the flop was necessary. The big blind (likely holding a Jack) bet out $16. My guess was he thought he'd pick it up without a fight. He was someone who hadn't played at Greg's much; there was no such luck of course. Avi quickly called (and it was even this early that I began to wonder if he had a flush draw), and a player behind him called. I intended to make it $48 to go, which would offer flush drawers 1-to-3.37 to see the turn. Close to the odds they'd need, but not quite. I accidentally put the wrong amount of chips in, making it $42 to go. It didn't change the odds much, but did offer flush drawers slightly better odds to take a card off. Only Avi called, making the pot $128.
I watched Avi as the turn came out. It fell, and was red. He reached for his stack and pushed it as one phallic tower into the pot. I looked down and saw that the red was, in fact, the revolting 8. I asked Laura (the dealer at Greg's) for a count, and she broke the tall stack apart into stacks of $20s and some odd chips, together making $98. Here I'm now faced with 1-to-1.3. I think I have 9 outs, not 10, because I think a Jack was folded on the flop. I need a 1-to-4.1 to call purely on the card math. I know Avi likes flush draws, but he'd make that same play with A J, a hand I'm crushing. He might even make the play with K J, and his play up until then was consistent with the latter.
In the end, I didn't really think for long. I didn't think the odds he's got a hand I'm beating make up for the odds I need to fill up, but I called anyway. A bad move, and it did cost me my whole stack. The most annoying part was that it wasn't even the nut flush. He was holding one of my outs with the 6 3 for flopped middle-pair-flush-draw combo, and was holding another one of my outs. That's poker, of course, and I probably should have been able to make that laydown to Avi, since we came from a big multi-way pot.
I needled him much more than I should have about calling without odds (mainly because the flush was so small, although I should have just kept my mouth shut), and I rebought another $200 from Greg.
Rebuilding a Big Stack at Nick's Expense
After I rebought, I picked up a few small pots, and built a stack of about $250, so I could survive the blinds without having to gamble and was covering most of the players. I then shifted gears to play a bit tighter. I played only pairs, suited connectors, and big cards for the next hour or so, and didn't bluff at any pots. Based on an old article I'd just reread, I was also avoiding calling pre-flop reraises with marginal big card hands like KQ, while being willing to call small pre-flop raises (relative to stack size, not blinds) with suited connectors and small pairs for implied odds. I really like this rule, BTW.
Such a situation occurred when I was dealt 7 8 and was the first limper in middle position. Nick (aka nick_marden) raised, making it $8 to go, so I called the extra $6 with the hopes of flopping something to win his $180 stack. This gives me 1-to-30 implied odds if I happen to hit a huge flop that can get him all-in with the worst of it.
The flop delivered with K 8 8. Since so many hands that Nick would raise with would have a K in them, I decided to check and see if he'd bet it. He came through with a $12 bet into the $16 pot. There was no reason I saw to slow play; he'd probably pay off with AK and KQ, and he'd be folding soon anyway if he had only a pocket pair or Ace high, and of course I didn't want him to hit his two-outer if he had a pair. I decided to raise my standard "represent strength raise", which is three times the initial bet. I made it $48 to go, bringing the pot to $76 and offering 1-to-2.11 to Nick.
Nick thought for five to eight seconds, and came back with a confident "all-in". This was really strange to me, and I went into the tank. After talking about it later, he really didn't understand why I had to think so long before calling. But, I really did have to think. I didn't expect him to just go all-in right there with a strong K, even AK. I expect him to call and go all-in on the turn. So, the all-in actually could have been a bluff, or it could actually represent something much stronger than just a good King. I thought for a while that AA was a likely holding, since he'd be likely to play AA this way, but I had to think about A8 and KK as well. I thought for a while that Nick might very well make that play, expecting that I was, in fact, holding a weak 8 and would definitely call with the worst of it.
The pot was laying me 1-to-1.72 to call Nick's all-in. That's the interesting thing about NL; you have to have some certainty about your reads, and you can't make crying calls, as I saw when I lost my stack to Avi earlier in the night. I thought it through, and decided that it was better that 1-to-1.72 against that I was winning. I called after about 45 seconds of deliberation, and Nick showed the 9 9. He missed his two-outer and his running chop outs, and I won.
Nick got pretty frustrated that I took so long to call. It's typical that in Greg's game, people get angry at me for taking long to act. I've tried to act quicker, but I simply can't get my brain to make the decisions automatically like I can in Limit HE. The odds change so fast in NL and can be set so precisely, and with my whole stack at risk every hand I play, I simply need more time. I feel bad that Nick felt my extra time to call was a sort of a slow roll, but I really didn't intend it to be. I really did want to consider the feasible hands he could hold (A9 and KK) that could beat my hand.
Bad Bluff Fails Against a Clueless Guy
One of the reasons the game was good on this particular evening was that two completely clueless fellows came that had never played at Greg's before. These guys were really, really bad. And, it wasn't too long before everyone thought they could get paid off with their best hands easily and bully them otherwise. I fell victim to the idea that the latter was possible, and bluffed with a busted draw into a board that read on the river (in order) K44AK. I had missed my flush, and I knew the guy had an Ace, and I thought I could get him off it with a pot sized raise. he called the $80 and won with AQ. Stupid move.
Steven Bluffs Me
Q when we were seven handed and Steven had raised from early position to $8. I reraised, making it $20 to go, and Steven came back over the top for another $40. I called, putting a total of $120 in the pot, but with deep stacks on both sides for heads-up play. I decided that Steven had to be holding an Ace or a King in his hand, given the play he'd made. Steven is capable of some crazy plays based on reads, and I am probably pretty easy for him to read, but he's unlikely to make a crazy play against me when we are so even on chips. I felt he probably had AK, but I didn't want to put my whole stack at risk on a coin flip. I was glad I hadn't when the flop came A 2 2. Steven bet out $60, half the pot, and I thought for about 25 seconds and folded. He said, "I'll show this one", and held up the 3 5, and taunted by saying: "I had a good draw". I am honestly not sure how I could call or raise with Queens there. It seems to me the stacks are just too deep to risk in that situation, even if I had a read that he didn't have AK and was making a play, which I didn't anyway. I got outplayed; pure and simple. I would really like to know what Steven had me on and what his thinking is, but I'm sure he won't tell me.
Odds and Ends
There were a few other odds and ends, such as where my A Q turned out to be best on a KQ8T8 board in a raised pot. I called a $16 bet from one of the clueless guys and bet $40 on the river uncalled after it was checked around on the turn. I wonder if that bet was worth it, as Steven was in the pot and could have made a play at me when I had a hand that couldn't call a raise after the board had paired 8s.
I also chopped a pot with Greg when we both held A7 on a board of K5A45 with two spades. The funny part about this one was not the chop of this unraised and turn-checked pot, but the fact that one of the clueless guys holding a busted flush draw with the 7 3 over-called my $20 bet on the river! Did he think his 7 kicker would play against the board to win?
4 and I held J J. I just went all-in over his relatively short stack and small pot and he folded. I felt bad about the "slow call" on the trip 8s earlier, so I showed him the hand, and he folded face up. I'll have to write about the Thursday game later. I also played Ashley's pot limit dealer's choice game on Sunday, which didn't go well. I doubt I'll make it to any home games this week, but maybe I'll do an entry on online play, and the promised entry about my thoughts on moving up in limits.
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Damn suited cards
Date: 2004-12-23 20:35 (UTC)This week at Greg's game, I limped in (or did I call $4? - I forget) on the button with 8
The early player checked, and Greg bet $6 into the pot. Having the inside straight draw and the flush draw, I decided to play a bit of a gambit and I raised to $12. The early player folded and the action came back to Greg.
Greg knows me enough to know that when I have a big hand such as top pair, I will often try to shut down my opponent on the flop. Considering this, he seemed a little confused whether I was (a) bluffing poorly, (b) held a monster and wanted a call, or (c) thought I was winning but failed to press my advantage correctly. I believe that the smallish amount of my raise may have factored into Greg's later aggression. At any rate, he simply called.
The turn (wouldn't it be a boring story otherwise?) was a 9
After thinking it over for thirty seconds or so, and delivering a little sermon about how he might just go all-in over the top of my big bet, he did so. I quickly called with my remaining $50 and flipped up my made straight + weak flush draw. Greg gave a little "oof" as if he had been way off on the strength of my holding, and the river did not make his hand a winner.
Despite the fact (or because of it?) that Greg and I are good friends, he declined to give me any insight into what he had. Given the amount of strength that I had shown, and the amount of respect that he tends to show me when I am the aggressor, I have to conclude that he had flopped a set of sixes and couldn't put me on my weird combo draw when I filled up on the turn. The other possibility is AT, but I can't imagine him pushing in his whole stack with two pair when I was acting like someone who had flopped a set. Perhaps if I get him a fruitcake for Christmas, he'll tell me.
Re: Damn suited cards
Date: 2004-12-23 21:09 (UTC)(as a correction, the flop was AT8, and you had 67.)
i was pretty sure you were strong, actually, but i had JT, giving me a pair and an open ended straight draw once that 9 hit on the turn. i also figured a T or a J were possible outs. i was pretty sure you didn't have an A, so i figured i'd gamble and go all in... it was only $80 or so. :-)
of course i didn't read you for having hit an inside straight with the flush draw to boot. i thought you probably had two pair or a set. maybe just a strong A or just a flush draw.
when the turn card hit i just knew i wasn't going to be able to get off the hand given the size of your stack. so, when in doubt, push all in.
Re: Damn suited cards
Date: 2004-12-23 22:35 (UTC)My bad
Date: 2004-12-23 21:21 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-23 21:24 (UTC)quote
Date: 2004-12-23 21:45 (UTC)What I said was, "I had a straight draw." I did show a bluff, but I definitely wouldn't consider it a taunt.
Sorry
Date: 2004-12-24 06:04 (UTC)I'm really sorry, Steven, for the misunderstanding. First, I misheard and did think you'd said "good draw". Second, and more importantly, the "taunting" I felt was my own feeling, and to the extent to which I felt you were doing any taunting, I thought it was part of the game. By that, I mean that I thought that you were showing what you knew to be the worse hand because you knew I had it beat by far and thought you had an Ace. I am sorry if the word "taunt" had a negative connotation; I didn't actually intend it that way; I just thought it was part of the game. I'd be very curious, of course, to hear your what your thinking was on the play.
Re: Sorry
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