An online hand with AA and a turn raise when board pairs

[shipitfish]

In my continuing effort to work on "getting away from strong hands when raised on the turn", this is a hand I had in my notes that I played back on 2005-01-02. I think this is an example of one I can't get away from, but I'm posting it for posterity and to see if others agree.

In an online $5/$10 limit HE game, I picked up AA in the big blind. There are three limpers before me (putting the pot at 4.5 small bets). I decided to raise right there, to build the pot. I would rather win a bigger pot, and punish those who limped with trash. Of course, with my tight image, this gives away that I have a big hand preflop. (That's the typical trade-off for raising with a strong holding in the BB.)

Everyone called the preflop raise, so we saw a flop of 3 Q 5 four-handed, and with 8.5 small bets in the pot.

I bet out on the flop, and a hyperaggressive player named Morron (interesting name, that) raised me. I reraise and he called. Someone in-between us also called, so we saw the turn three handed with about 8.5 big bets in the pot.

I was pretty sure that Morron had a pretty good hand. Even though his aggression was typical, he wasn't usually terribly aggressive with three in the pot -- he saved his most aggressive tendencies for heads-up play. I figure he had KQ or a holding like that. I was pretty convinced it was simply a strong queen he was overplaying a bit. Q5 and Q3 weren't really possibilities, since Morron had reasonable starting hand selection (even though he was hyperaggressive) and he had been in early position preflop.

The turn fell 5, pairing fives. I bet again, and Morron raised, giving the pot 10.5 big bets. The other guy folded. So, I'd have to call two big bets to showdown (because I know it will go check-bet-call on the river). I'm thus offered 1-to-5.25. The question was: are those odds good enough to justify the idea that he didn't flop a set or holds a 5? I decided that they did, so I called, the river came 3, with the expected check-bet-call, and Morron showed A 5.

I wonder, can I get away from that hand? Should I have gotten away? Don't I have to put him on at least trips when the 5 turns? OTOH, he's hyperaggressive, so I should call, I guess. I'm not sweating the call down, but I am trying figure out the right lines of when to get away from raises on the turn in limit HE.

Comments

Re: That's what I thought

[shipitfish.livejournal.com]

It's really cool that you found my journal. I think it's interesting, since online poker is such a detached thing, for someone I've played online to actually come and find my journal. I presume you found it by googling for your username.

It's also very interesting to me that you are such a thoughtful player. I had you totally pegged wrong; I thought you were a hyperaggressive without warrant, but obviously you are pretty thoughtful player. It's a good lesson for me: don't make snap assessments of players based on only a few observations. I invite you to continue reading and commenting on other parts of my journal.

My criticism is not to say I've never called with a small suited ace from early position, but that I think it was a bad call in that game. There was a good amount of raising there preflop, and I would have felt that limping from early position would likely yield a raise. Even if the guy ahead of you is making some bad plays, you have to worry about a good number of people behind you, even 7-handed.

But, assuming I'd seen the flop and called the raise from the big blind for odds to see if I could outflop, I think I'd fold that holding on the flop. The only hand you're beating that you can possibly put me on is AK suited, given my past play in that game; I do recall I was playing quite tight in that game.

I see why you considered the raise, because it would slow me down if I did only have top pair and you might catch a free river card if I just call and check the turn. However, I think it's difficult to consider the remaining aces your outs, because AQ or AA is such a possibilities. Plus, with most holdings, I am going to three-bet you on the flop, as I did. You realistically have three outs, I think: the remaining fives and the running flush draw (using the "running flush draw is an extra out" rule of thumb.

Also, in this situation, you have a player behind you. I honestly don't remember what kind of player this was -- I vaguely remember him as a calling station. So, in some sense, you might have implied odds to call me in that situation, since you had 1-to-9.5 direct pot odds and the 1-to-10.5 if the guy behind you calls. The problem with the raise is that it reopens the betting and allows me to three-bet. The calling play seems a bit weak, but given that it might induce a call behind you (while he did call two bets cold, you can't be sure he would).

I now actually don't think I played the hand perfectly. I think that given your aggression that particular day, I might have gotten a bet from you on the flop, and I could have check-raised. We might have gotten a cap on the flop. Of course, the 5 would still have devastated me, but I would have gotten more bets in when I was winning.