On Donkey Play and Relationships to Money
Wednesday, 22 March 2006 23:40![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipitfishIt was suggested to me not long ago (offline) that the primary reason I
post hand details of bad plays where I point out donkey plays is that
somehow I can't handled the losses and/or variance. The implication
seems to be that someone who says boy, what a donkey play I
made
must be deeply upset over that loss because the money means
too much to them.
Of course, the money means less to rich people, particularly those who play at only lower stakes that are basically financially meaningless and cost less than a nice dinner out. I try to carefully balance the value of money. In poker, you can never focus in the value of the money during the game — down that path leads to tight-weak play. But, you also can't think of it as valueless entertainment dollars either, because in those cases, you can easily excuse your inability to play correctly with the fact that the money “just doesn't matter”.
You also have to be ready, willing, and able to admit that you're a bad player, even if being such only lasted one session or one hand. You've got to be ready to call yourself a “donkey” once in a while. As Thomas Keller wrote the first time the term “donkey” appeared in Card Player magazine:
Donkey is generally perceived as a friendly word, and few people I have run across have taken great offense at being called a donkey — whether it be for making a bad play or accidentally posting right in front of the big blind. Even I have been called a donkey at times for things I have done at the poker table, and I usually have gotten a good chuckle out of it. Lots of professionals will even refer to themselves as donkeys when they make a mistake, saying such things as, “I played that hand like a donkey”, or sometimes they just let out a good heehaw (the sound a donkey makes).
Playfully calling yourself out for a stupid action doesn't necessarily have anything to do with fear of variance or otherwise being unable to handle the losses. I agree that one should avoid playing for stakes where the losses would be too much to handle. However, there is no reason that being honest with oneself about one's game relates to playing above one's head.
I play for stakes where I can take a loss that is meaningful. While I believe somewhat in the relative nature of wealth — I know that the man with a million dollars has trouble proper valuing $100 — I try to keep in mind that even $20 is enough for anyone to be well fed for a day, and therefore it has absolute value that no one's relative wealth can ever obscure. But, since I'm playing for meaningful stakes, it also means I can win amounts each year that are meaningful as well. It's amazing to me to have a hobby that, unlike so many others that just cost (sometimes waste) money, can turn a profit. By keeping a bankroll appropriate to the stakes that I play, if I'm a winning player over the long term, I can survive whatever variance comes my way.
But, I'm careful to keep this concept — bankroll variance and serious losses — separate from my analysis of the game and mistakes in it. Sometimes people will describe a hand where they faced a draw out, and then believe that such a loss is equivalent to one where a terrible play was made that cost them just as much. Money lost as a “donkey” and money lost when playing correctly are deeply different things.
It was tough for me early in my poker career to start picking apart this distinction. One of the reasons it took me so long to figure out that I was abusing semi-bluffing was that I won so often doing it. It's hard to realize how much of a donkey you were when you walk out a winner because you got called every time you were semi-bluffing and happened to get lucky a few times in a row. This principle has an impact the other way, too. If you lose, you have to figure out whether it was your fault or merely bad luck.
One of the key truths of poker is that every player makes mistakes.
It's already pretty hard for all but the best players in the world
not to do so. Games like poker, where you need lots of conflicting
technical information at your fingertips while simultaneously making
educated guesses about your opponents' private information, can
easily cause you to make awful plays. We all make plenty of them
when we play poker. As Phil Ivey said on a recent Learn Poker
From the Pros broadcasts: I make mistakes every time I sit
down to play poker
. If Ivey's sometimes a donk, how can anyone
say it's wrong to admit to yourself that you might have been a donk,
too?
My game got substantially better when I took “default ownership” for hands. By this, I mean I started assuming that I'd done something wrong, and forced myself to prove that what I'd done was correct. Occasionally, the proof becomes a justification for bad play. However, most of the time, if you force yourself to disprove the hypothesis that you're an (albeit temporary) donkey, you have a much better chance of being honest about your game and improving.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
good point
Date: 2006-03-23 15:32 (UTC)Ofen times, it was my fault. Gambling distracted (hungry, tired, drunk, while surfing the Internet) is often times the culprit. Other times, I just get caught up in the moment. My biggest problem, currently, is playing my hand (only) instead of playing the table (i.e. the players). I also have noticed that, when I'm distracted, I'll find myself staring down at a heads up pot on the turn and realize that I have no idea what cards the other guy is holding. Luckily, I've been playing mostly for free lately.
I've been reading the Psychology of Poker lately. I'm reading it once from front to back... it's helping me shape my image of myself. I will probably re-read it at some later date with a more serious approach. Right now, I'm just gleaning information and insights into my and others' play. It is helpful.
Thanks for the recommendation.
(man, can I babble or what?)
T
no subject
Date: 2006-03-23 20:27 (UTC)On the other hand, if they disclaim themselves before hand, with warnings or excuses, then I start to get worried. My mind starts to wonder if they have emotional insecurities or if they are about to dupe me. :-)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-26 06:02 (UTC)Indeed. A classic poker scenario is “I know I'm beat, but I'm going to call”, as if this some how excuses a terrible play. It's about the psychology of the loser, who can't give up to the idea that they are being tricked. Good players get tricked sometimes, but better to be tricked than to do stupid things and excuse it. Call if you think you can win with the proper odds you're being offered. Fold if you can't.
As for self analysis, I tend to drone on more about my poker mistakes than most people, but mainly it's because I really want to understand how to prevent them and figure out why I made them. But, it's true I should try not rattle on for too long. :)
I can call myself a donkey...but can I call *you* a donkey?
Date: 2006-12-21 04:09 (UTC)I held 99 in late position and called a raise from the UTG+2 player, $15 at a 1/2 table (pretty standard opening raise for someone showing strength). A third call was made from the BB by a dude (I'll call him "Donkey") who was playing 50%-60% of the hands. Because of some luck, Donkey had about $600; I had about $300, and the tight raiser had only $75.
The flop was 774. I'll cut-and-paste my recollection from an email to my friend Kelly:
---
Tight dude in late position ($75 behind): Raise to $15.
Me (about $400 behind): Call
Donkey (about $600 behind): Call
Flop: 774
Me: Bet $40 (about the amount of the pot)
Donkey: Call
Tight dude: Raise by $45 more
Me: Call (I should have folded here)
Donkey: All-in
Tight dude: Call
Me: Fold
(cards are dealt out, Donkey's 7c3c is the best hand over tight dude's JJ)
Me: Nice call preflop.
Donkey: What? It was only $15.
Me: I understand that. But since the raiser only had $75 behind, it doesn't really make sense to call with 73, does it?
Donkey: But if I hit my hand....
Me: Yes, I understand that on the one occasion in 900 that you flop trips, or the one time in 27 that you flop two pair, you're in business and you probably get all his money. But neither is likely enough to happen when your opponent has 5x his pre-flop bet behind, to justify the call.
Donkey: Look? Who won the hand?
Me: I understand that you won the hand. You called like a donkey, and then you won the hand.
Donkey: Did you just call me a donkey?
Me: I may have.
Donkey: You should STFU blah blah blah...because the people here are only going to protect you for so long.
Steve: He (Nick) never shuts up about hands. He's still bitching about the time I called $100 preflop with A5 suited. [Note: I'm *not* still bitching about it, but when Steve brings it up - which he does every time I play against him - I continue to point out that it was a bad call because of the size of the stacks involved.]
Donkey: Well look who has the chips!
Me: Well look who has the power of math on their side.
Donkey: This isn't about math! This is poker!
This was where Jay intervened. Apparently the other guy must have sounded menacing or something, because I certainly wasn't even raising my voice. I just called the guy a donkey, and then explained why. But apparently this caused quite a buzz at the table and people were all nervous that a fight was going to break out or something. (I was liking my chances - I could have just sat on him, because he weighed about 140).
Later in the night Donkey called my pre-flop all-in raise of $106 into a $88 pot (I had QQ) as did Joe (A6s) and some other dude I don't know (AKo). Unfortunately the K got there and I never had a chance to find out what Donkey called a $88 raise with.
---
So here's the real question. I am totally happy to call myself a donkey ("Why oh why did I call tight dude's raise?"), but should I just stay completely out of the business of discussing poker with other people? For me the discussion of the hands is probably 50% of the fun of the game in the first place, but apparently not so for others.
Re: I can call myself a donkey...but can I call *you* a donkey?
Date: 2006-12-21 20:47 (UTC)Nick, I think you should make this a fresh post in your journal. :)
Meanwhile, I ultimately think it's a bad idea to actually talk about poker hands at the table with other players. There aren't many games where this is appropriate, because most people who aren't very good players are terribly fragile about the whole thing. I see the best way to do it is to play your game, do so quietly, and then talk later with people who have a clue about what was right/wrong about what everyone did.
Also, my views on poker are generally changing; I don't actually find playing as enjoyable as I used to. It's become somewhat of a money thing — I play to get money, and the enjoyable part is talking about whether I did the right thing with smart people afterwards. The playing, in other words, is like the boring data collection phase of an experiment, and the results and debate of the results are what's interesting.
Re: I can call myself a donkey...but can I call *you* a donkey?
Date: 2006-12-21 20:53 (UTC)So, if I want to win $$$, I need to be willing to play in an environment that is otherwise un-fun. If I want to have fun, I need to have a much lower (or even negative) EV.
Bleh!
(I suppose I could find winning chips fun, but then if all I cared about was money I would work more hours at my job.)
Re: I can call myself a donkey...but can I call *you* a donkey?
Date: 2006-12-21 22:21 (UTC)What? I thought you were a salaried employee. ;) Or, do you mean your stock options will go up if you work harder? :)
Anyway, in all seriousness, this is precisely why I've mostly given up on the NYC clubs. The typical NYC club-goer is either (a) unbearable to be around or (b) a good enough player that there's not tons of EV there. Casinos are much better because the mix of people includes those who are just on vacation relaxing in a poker game. Most club goers are loud-mouth gambling nuts or people who think they are the best poker players ever born.
Also, the other option is just going to games with people and getting seats nearby them. Most people at the lower limits get no edge from you if you talk high-minded theory with a friend at the table. Of course, I realize that if you're going to do this with me, I must learn the proper volume of speech at a casino. I find it amazingly ironic that I talk too low, rather than the canonical too loud, with my headphones on. :)
Re: I can call myself a donkey...but can I call *you* a donkey?
Date: 2006-12-21 22:34 (UTC)(Of course I'd prefer to own 50% of the company in a case like that, but I'll take what they're giving me...)
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