A Few Short Handed $10/$20 Limit HE Hands

[shipitfish]

Ok, so I have a ton of entries stacked up and half written. Instead of trying to fix those and get them up, I'm going to instead quickly write up a few hands from my short-handed 10/20 limit HE tonight at Pokerroom's 5-handed limit HE tables.

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Nut Flush over K-flush and A Raising War

In this hand, I was fortunate enough in one of the first hands after I sat down to see a free flop with A 3 in the BB and flopped 2 9 Q. I checked behind the SB, and the button who had also limped bet, and the SB called. I decided to simply call, figuring that there was probably another flush or flush draw out there, and I wanted to get another bet on the turn. (These games are quite aggressive, and I could pretty much expect a bet from someone on the turn.)

The SB and I checked the turn (A), and the SB check-raised when the button bet. I decided to cold call, because I figured the button would over-call there, and if the SB really did have a made flush (I figured a small one), I would get some raises in on the river.

The button did call the raise, and when the 5 fell on the river, I raised when the SB bet out. The button called the raise cold, and the SB three-bet. I figured I was better off capping at this point because button had showed a willingness to overcall a raise (could we all three have flopped a flush?), and I knew I'd at least get the SB's call, which was the best odds to get one more big bet in. The button did think for a while and fold, an the SB called and mucked the K 6. I yielded $258 in the pot (thanks to Pokerroom for telling you how much you won discounting your own bets!).

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I Should have Tossed Two Pair, But I Sucked out

Short story here for this particular hand: I limped from the small blind with KJo. I flopped two pair and check-raised an aggressive player with a two flush on board. Flush got there and I got raised when I bet out. I am looking at 1-to-5 odds to draw to what may be a four-outer, and 1-to-3 odds to catch a bluff (by calling down). I am not really sure, and finally decide to call as the timer ticks on me. I don't have to worry as the river comes a Jack and I get a check-raise paid off. Even the implied odds for this happy turn (well, "river") of events were only 1-to-7.

I am pretty sure I should have folded two-pair on that turn. I am curious what others think.

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Could I Drop AA Before the Turn?

In this hand, I had A A in the the cutoff seat. I raise the button folds, and the other three see the flop of 6 8 7 with me.

I was the three-bettor on the flop, and the guy who originally raised capped. I figure he has two pair, but I call anyway, hoping to pick up a running flush draw or an Ace. I really can't know which two pair he has, he would easily play 67 or 78 for a limp and then call a raise with pot odds, so I can't tell when my aces up would be good.

The turn is a black 9, making it an easy fold when another player bets the turn. The hand ends with one person holding A5o and the other T8o. The guy whom I had on two-pair also folded on the turn after saying "lol" in the chat window. He claimed later to have had top two.

So, should I have folded on the flop when it's capped? Is the three bet right?

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Battle of the Blinds Goes Wrong

In this hand, the same aggressive player who laid down the two pair raised from the SB when I held A9o. I called, as he'd been making plays in this situation a lot. We checked through the flop of 6 J A, and I raised when he bet at the turn of 9, he three-bet, I capped, and he called. He bet the river and I called. He had the obvious: AJ.

I am thinking here I should have either bet the flop and folded to a check-raise, or folded to the cap three-bet on the turn. Capping the turn was clearly incorrect.

I would really appreciate comments on those last three hands in particular.

Comments

[dankhank.livejournal.com]

it's interesting, our approaches to online limit are substantially different:

hand 1: yay, love when that happens. one could say that success at online limit is sitting around waiting for this to happen. (but of course most of us get impatient, doh)

hand 2: i am rarely folding two pair in a five-handed game against an aggresive player who has position on me. but, the flow of the table will dictate me doing so at times. usually i am cry calling all the way down since, as you mention, the chances of a bluff are high. when the flush comes you should seriously consider checking the turn and check-calling all the way (except of course when the friendly jack comes). by check-calling you are not only protecting against a raise, but you can induce bluff attempts.

hand 3: i don't like three-betting here. i assume you're three-betting for information. however, don't you think you gain as much if not more information by calling the turn and letting the original bettors (who must act before you) act against one another again on the turn? the added benefit is the person who woke up with the best hand, who also acts before you, might define his hand as well on the turn before it gets to you too. when the flop is capped i am definitely calling one more bet due to the backdoor nut flush draw and set draw.

hand 4: this is where we most differ. in this hand i am betting the flop, calling a check-raise, and calling down (am i giving up too much information in this post? geez, where is our cutthroat competitiveness, bradley?). the cap on the turn is something i would never do. on the river, what if instead of leading out he check-raised you. if that happened (and it could've) you have just given up two big bets, trying to value bet yourself. you point out yourself that this play is incorrect - i am pointing out that with a slightly different approach to limit he (a more defensive approach) the thought would've never occured to you in the first place.

in other situations you love making bets for information, and yet at a crucial information gathering spot in this hand, the flop, you check instead.

as i think about your summary more, there are several situations where i would fold to a check-raise on this flop. maybe at this table at this moment this would've been one of them, i can't say. at first your comment "maybe i should've folded to a check-raise on the flop" struck me as something i wouldn't do, but now i realize it falls into a nice defensive philosophy.

let's say you did get check-raised on the flop: then hand four would be a perfect example of how at the crucial moment of a hand, when a "tight" fold is usually the best move, how if you make the mistake of continuing on instead the mistake ends up compounding itself on every street (when your dominated two pair arrives) and you can't get away. this compounding mistake issue - and having the discipline to never get stuck in it the first place - is the main thing i'm working on currently.

what you may want to work on is gathering information in a more passive way. doing so will require you to at times make more instinctual call/fold decisions than if you raised a bunch of times and then got away from the hand with a clear conscience, yet less chips in your stack.

[dkwad.livejournal.com]

Are those hand history links supposed to work for me? I just get: "You can only view the history of hands you have participated in." Not seeing the actual hand histories makes some of these hands hard to comment on.

Hand #2:
On the turn the best lines are probably bet out and fold to a raise, or check-call to showdown. Playing the way you played it seems like it's only profitable if your opponent is hyper-aggro.

Hand #3:
Even considering folding to a cap after 3-betting the flop seems bad bad bad to me.

Firstly, you are possibly still winning. True, you are *probably* losing, but homies might raise and reraise this flop with 98, a flush draw, JT, A8, or worse. The pot is enormous, so the scarcity of the cases where you're ahead is compensated by the pot size. It is even possible that the pot is big enough for you to profitably call to showdown even if you improve 0% of the time (but probably not).

But you don't improve 0% of the time. Against two pair, the most likely better hand statistically, an overpair wins about 25% of the time by the river (this is heads up; if the other players in the pot have pairs, your equity goes down, but it's maybe compensated by the greater number of contributors?). Even against top set you have pot odds to catch an A on the turn. Your backdoor nut flush draw gives you another 4% or so in all cases, even if someone already has the nuts.

Your impulse to consider folding for one more on the flop reminds me of a mistake Harrington mentions: Many players try to guess whether they are currently winning or losing and base their fold/call decision on that guess. What they should be doing instead is considering the range of hands they are up against, calculating their chances of winning against those hands, and deciding if the price is right.

I can't really say whether 3-betting is right. It depends a lot on the exact seating and action (your goal in 3-betting is primarily to eliminate players, a bit to get information, and least of all to build the pot). All things being equal, I am more inclined to 3-bet if I hold the A and more inclined to flat call if I don't. In addition to the 4% for the backdoor flush, there is the "fuck, that is a shitty card, now I am done with this pot" consideration: if a heart slips off on the turn, you are hating life and looking to exit the pot if you don't hold the A, but with the A, you pick up a great draw and are happily continuing.

You say you had an easy fold on the turn when a black 9 came off and there was a bet. Would the same be true for (876)5 and (876)4 and (876)T? Just curious.

Hand #4:
I don't see the point of check-checking the flop. This is something you might want to do in NL/PL to keep the pot small so you can get to showdown cheaply in position with a weak made hand. In limit, though, you gain very little (there aren't many hands that are going to give you much extra action because of your tricky check), but you can lose a lot. You give a free card to hands like QT that might beat you or at least pick up a draw to beat you on the turn, but would fold if you bet. You miss a bet with what is probably the best hand when you are most likely to get paid off (your opponent has shown supreme weakness by checking the A after raising preflop, so he knows he might have induced a bluff and he may be planning to call or check-raise a bet, even with a worse hand than yours). You miss out on information and are heading into the turn with no clue about what your opponent holds (if you bet this flop and are called or check-raised, you can narrow his hand range a *lot*). Finally, you hurt your "integration" with crappy hands which which you'd like to pick up the pot with a flop bluff.

Since there are now many possible straight draws out there, capping the turn is fine, but I probably prefer to call his 3-bet. If he is likely to bluff the river if he misses his draw, then you should just call. If he will often check the river after you cap the turn when he holds a better hand than you, then you should probably cap.

[roryk.livejournal.com]

What I would have said has been covered already. In hand #4, you have an easy 3 bet preflop. You have position against a probable steal raise with a strong hand-- get that money in there.