Are Poker Communities Possible?

[shipitfish]

I started working on another post about River Street (I promise, it's coming soon, salvelinus), and it got me thinking about poker communities. River Street made my poker life into a community. I honestly have never felt part of a community in poker since then. These days, I am in poker as I am in most things — an outsider looking in.

Poker has become a solitary activity. I do play mostly online at the moment, simply because the EV is better. But, even when I was travelling weekly to Foxwoods or playing a few times a week at the games in NYC, I was generally not part of a specific community.

As an outsider, I often wonder if the poker communities that I see around me are genuine. Are people really friends in poker? How much time do they spend together? How much time do they spend talking about the game? Are their friendships primarily outside of poker or is poker the central commonality that holds the relationships together? I admit that while I can often make great reads of people and their tendencies at the poker table, relationships — even those in poker — have usually remained completely mysterious.

My closest poker-playing friends are simply not as deeply into it as I am (e.g., W.D. and nick_marden), and our relationships are primarily defined in commonalities that are wholly outside of poker. So, I naturally wonder what I'm missing that these seemingly tight nit groups of poker players have. Do players in these groups have an edge over the solitary, self-motivated player? Is there more to be learned by having a group than going it alone? Is poker more fun and less lonely that way?

Oddly, I got seriously into poker primarily as a way to meet people outside of the computer science world and expand my horizons. But, ironically, I don't meet many people anymore in poker. Sure, just like on a plane ride, I meet the occasional “single-serving friend” at the tables, but I rarely ever see that person again. I am certainly not finding friends easily in poker anymore; I am mostly just showing up to take their money.

From time to time, I have thought about getting out there and just building a poker community myself. I was reminded of this when Howard Lederer talked on The Circuit recently about the group that came out of the old Mayfair club right here in NYC. They became some of the best in the world because they came together as part of a group that learned from each other. The NYC poker clubs of today are too transient now to make that happen. Nevertheless, the idea of forming a poker study group has crossed my mind more than twice. I wonder, though, if it would be worth the effort. I doubt that anyone in NYC but me is enough of a poker geek to show up regularly to sit around and talk about poker without even playing it. But, I'm still thinking about it, anyway.

As for online “communities”, like the 2+2 fora, such things aren't for me anymore. As a lifelong computer geek, I've already spent far too much of my life substituting online venues for real life interaction, and I resolved long ago not to do that anymore. It's real life or burst, at least in that arena.

Comments

Re: Poker community

[shipitfish.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't like playing against opponents who are friends either, but it helps that I always have the deal with friends that after the game I'll tell them everything I had and what I was thinking and all that. W.D. and I have done this quite a bit and it has worked for us. Being “friendly” in my mind isn't the same as being friends (hence my note about the single-serving friend). Even if it is two or three servings, that's not what I'm talking about.

Meanwhile, I'm curious about the NL games at Foxwoods. I took a mini-vacation there recently and was surprised that the level of play in the $2/$5 was quite good and they weren't easily beatable games (compared to the NYC games and online games). Is that typical or are weeknights just not good?

Re: Poker community

[salvelinus.livejournal.com]

I generally don't like to disclose my hands after a game to a friend (or foe) for two reasons. 1) They'll get valuable insight on my play and might beat me next time :-) and 2) The friend might get upset at me and themselves because I forced/tricked them into laying down a winning hand. I just don't like to deceive real friends, especially when money is involved - even if it is a game. Emotions can run high when you're involved with a friend for $2000-$3000 pot. If the friend is on a long-running bad streak, I feel even worse. But, I do enjoy discussing OTHER people's play after a hand or after the game folds up with the people who I am "friendly" with. I also do like to hear what my poker "friendlies" are up to in their personal lives. I guess that's as close to a poker community I'll get. Riverstreet certainly had some characters who I enjoyed playing with and talking to. I still ask about a few of them from time to time. I'm not playing that much these days though, so I've sort of slipped out of the "community" that I moved to later - the Loft.

In general I'm finding that the $2/5 game is harder to beat than it was a year or two ago. There are more and more Foxwoods regulars that have found their way to $2/5 seeking easy prey. A month ago, I ended up playing at a table with six(!) regular grinders for ~8 hours. That was a tough situation to make a profit from. That said, if you adjust your play, it can be done - many of the regulars generally play ABC, and can be run over with agressive, tricky play and bluffs - if you are careful and pick your spots and set them up properly. Definitely a tougher game though.
In contrast, the weekend before last, many of the regulars were not there (some went to Vegas for the WS). The game was as juicy as ever, and I walked away up $3500 in less than 14 total hours of play, similar to what a good weekend of $2/5 at Foxwoods used to be like for me a year ago. During the week, it is definitely tougher sledding, with many regulars and fewer tables running. Friday night to Sunday is my favorite (and most pofitable) time to play.
If you have the bankroll, the $5/10 (capped buy-in at $1500) plays at about the same skill level as the $2/5, and often worse.