PL Stud Hand in Boston

[shipitfish]

While I was in Boston in January, I visited a downtown poker club. It's run by a fellow who used to work at The E. Club in NYC. As I understand it, he commutes down to Boston a few times a week and has some locals who help him run it.

I discovered that folks from the old River Street crowd, such as Ken come by there occasionally. I saw none of the old group on the two nights I played there, except for nick_marden who joined me the second night.

The club was small, with only three tables. As is typical on weekend nights at these sorts of clubs, the one running game was short-handed on this Saturday. I arrived and they were playing $2/$4 limit mixed games, which was great fun and I was happy to play.

The local fish, a fellow named Josh, arrived a while later and immediately bought two grand in chips, hoping a big game would get started. He sat down in our little limit game, which was comprised mostly of off-duty dealers and that night's floorman. Josh got "bored" and asked for the stakes to be changed.

We agreed, after some argument between a newbie dealer and the floorman that PL is too complicated for this n00b to deal. It was settled; we would play PL mixed games, including Stud, O/8, and HE, with $1/$2 blinds. I was excited to work on my mixed game PL play. It's frankly my preferred form of poker, but something that's tough to find in the USA and online on a regular basis.

We moved blinds and small pots around for about half an hour, when the following hand came up during a stud round. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has some PL stud experience to tell me if I simply misplayed this hand. After much thought and input from nick_marden, I decided that I played it correctly, but I'd appreciate hearing arguments on the subject.

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My First $300 Stud Hand

We all had about our initial buy-in of $300, with Josh having a bit more (maybe $375 or so). I caught the bring-in with 2, and threw in the $1 without looking. I looked around to see a 6 , a 5, and a T, and a K showing. The 6 called, and Josh with the T raised the pot size ($4). My hole cards, to my surprise, were Q Q. I thought for a moment about my next move. I had a strong feeling that Josh had a split pair of tens, but wasn't totally sure yet. I was only sure that he had at least that. I decided to call and slowplay, hoping the 6, a very tight player, would fold.

The 6 unfortunately called behind me. I caught the 4, the 6 caught a 5, and Josh's T got a 6. Josh bet out $10, and I decided that I had to get heads up, and raised $25 more. The tight player quickly folded and Josh called.

I was sure at this point that Josh only had merely the pair of tens. I felt he would have reraised right there with jacks or better, because he is an extremely aggressive player (to the point of overplaying his strong but not great huge holdings). In reaction to my raise, he had this "what could he have?" look. I was sure he was confused by the fact that I'd slow-played on third street.

The pot stood at $86 as our boards became (Q Q) 2 4 5 and (T? ??) T 6 7. Josh quickly checked.

I really felt at this point that Josh had yet to improve from the pair of tens. There was no other hand I could really put him on, and he clearly thought that I was weak. I decided to bet $50 into the $86 pot. Josh thought for just a moment and called, swelling the pot to $186.

Sixth street was (Q Q) 2 4 5 6 and (T? ??) T 6 7 2. I had picked up a gutshot, and didn't think Josh had improved. I didn't think he had a 2 kicker, particularly because one of them is dead in my hand. Two of the sixes are also dead. If he had T7 in the hole, I felt he would have raised earlier. In particular, I thought he would bet out when I hit another straight card, yet he checked again.

I was very confident that I held the better hand. I bet out $100 into the $186 pot, which left me with about $150 behind. Josh looked at me in that "strong means weak" sort of way, and said: Raise, $125 more!. What could this near-min-raise mean? I really read it as weak. I know min-raises often mean strength, but I knew that Josh knew he should protect two pair more than that. He just couldn't have two pair. The only straight possibility with an exact 89 in the hole. That didn't fit any of his betting patterns in this hand, nor did it match how he typically played draws. I was pretty sure he had on pair of tens. I had 4 live outs to a straight if he didn't.

I did have to consider for a moment that maybe he didn't have split tens, but instead had 77. I didn't think he would have slow played that on fifth street with trips, either. 22, of course, made no sense at all. If he had AA or KK, he'd have protected it more on fourth street. So, I settled for sure on split TT, and an unpaired kicker.

It was only $25 more for me to be all-in, so I said: Maybe I'm the biggest fish in the world, but I'm all-in. Of course, Josh called immediately, which I expected no matter what he held. I announced: I just have queens. Josh's jaw dropped to the floor, and said: You didn't raise early on, I couldn't think you had better than tens!. I was so glad; my heart pounded, and the river was sent face down. I caught a meaningless ace, and Josh looked distraught. He threw his river card face up. The dealer began to square the pot (Josh had me covered) and it was moving toward me. Josh shouted, Wait, I have a flush. As it turned out, he had started with T 8 and the river card he'd tossed across the table face-up was the 4.

The floorman of the club, a reasonably clueful player, berated us both. You dumbasses, he chided, didn't one of you think the other one had two pair? The whole table debated the hand for the next round, and Josh continually pointed out that he check-raised because he thought I was trying to to blow him out of the pot with nothing. I entered the debate a bit, and pointed out that I knew Josh had tens. I bitched a little bit about the slow-roll. Someone else pointed out that it wasn't Josh's intention to slow-roll — that Josh was as surprised as I was to find out he held a flush. I moved on from the point; don't tap on the glass, after all.

Yet, I am still wondering, did I do the right thing? Do I have to give him two pair and let his $125 bet take down the $286 pot? My pot odds were a little less than 1-to-3, so I don't have to be right all that often to make moving in correct. But, I'm just not that experienced of a stud player (neither, BTW, was Josh). So, was nick_marden right, when he counseled me on the phone that I played ever street correctly, and in saying: You just need to understand, Bradley; Josh is a fish.

Anyway, whether I played it right or not, I lost a quick $300+ in this hand. In a later post, I'll describe how I rebought and lost another $300 to Josh just few hands later in O/8.

Comments

[shipitfish.livejournal.com]

Actually, sixth street was the very moment where I was ready to be pot committed; with his combination of "just call" on fifth and checking out on sixth when I have a gutshot on-board, my read became pretty solid that he had an unimproved pair of tens. Unlike fifth street, where I knew I'd have to fold to a check-raise, I was more or less prepared to get it all in when he blanked on sixth street and I picked up a draw.

There is another odd thing about stud that is relevant here: the hidden river card. Stewart Ruben talks a lot about this in Pot Limit & No Limit Poker (co-authored with Ciaffone). The river is difficult to play because instead of being able to see what draws were missed or reached (as we can in widow games), you must here consider that your opponent has an entirely new, hidden holding at the most crucial moment of the hand. I'd much rather have a strong, solid, confident, developed-over-many-betting-rounds read on my opponent's starting hand and get a lot of money in on that, than to check behind on sixth and have to play guessing games when he (remember, he's overly aggressive when he senses weakness) undoubtedly bets out the river holding a new hidden card.

In fact, I think checking sixth is giving up on the hand. If I don't hit the straight or trips on the river (7 outs), it's very difficult to call a big bet from Josh. Indeed, at that point, I can't know if queens up will be good because he's gotten a hidden card that could have easily made him Kings up or Aces up (remember, I was worried that he had TT with a hidden overcard kicker). My only hope is that he checks again, which he's highly unlikely to do.

Honestly, I do think Josh's whole play was suicide. Like many fish, he's aggressive at the wrong times. He could have check-raised me on fourth or fifth, or even bet out one of those rounds and probably won the hand when I statistically had the better of him. I can't put him on rolled up tens or other such hands because he would have slow played early. His idea, I think, was to let me "bluff" at him over and over, and he was going to catch me, but then got scared when I got that gutshot on board. Yet, this hand troubles me so; I want to keep telling myself I made a read like a pro and played it just right, but losing (which was just statistically unlucky, of course, given the true cards), combined with the fact that I am so inexperienced at PL stud makes me wonder if that's just a bad case of poker ego.