PL Stud Hand in Boston

[shipitfish]

While I was in Boston in January, I visited a downtown poker club. It's run by a fellow who used to work at The E. Club in NYC. As I understand it, he commutes down to Boston a few times a week and has some locals who help him run it.

I discovered that folks from the old River Street crowd, such as Ken come by there occasionally. I saw none of the old group on the two nights I played there, except for nick_marden who joined me the second night.

The club was small, with only three tables. As is typical on weekend nights at these sorts of clubs, the one running game was short-handed on this Saturday. I arrived and they were playing $2/$4 limit mixed games, which was great fun and I was happy to play.

The local fish, a fellow named Josh, arrived a while later and immediately bought two grand in chips, hoping a big game would get started. He sat down in our little limit game, which was comprised mostly of off-duty dealers and that night's floorman. Josh got "bored" and asked for the stakes to be changed.

We agreed, after some argument between a newbie dealer and the floorman that PL is too complicated for this n00b to deal. It was settled; we would play PL mixed games, including Stud, O/8, and HE, with $1/$2 blinds. I was excited to work on my mixed game PL play. It's frankly my preferred form of poker, but something that's tough to find in the USA and online on a regular basis.

We moved blinds and small pots around for about half an hour, when the following hand came up during a stud round. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has some PL stud experience to tell me if I simply misplayed this hand. After much thought and input from nick_marden, I decided that I played it correctly, but I'd appreciate hearing arguments on the subject.

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My First $300 Stud Hand

We all had about our initial buy-in of $300, with Josh having a bit more (maybe $375 or so). I caught the bring-in with 2, and threw in the $1 without looking. I looked around to see a 6 , a 5, and a T, and a K showing. The 6 called, and Josh with the T raised the pot size ($4). My hole cards, to my surprise, were Q Q. I thought for a moment about my next move. I had a strong feeling that Josh had a split pair of tens, but wasn't totally sure yet. I was only sure that he had at least that. I decided to call and slowplay, hoping the 6, a very tight player, would fold.

The 6 unfortunately called behind me. I caught the 4, the 6 caught a 5, and Josh's T got a 6. Josh bet out $10, and I decided that I had to get heads up, and raised $25 more. The tight player quickly folded and Josh called.

I was sure at this point that Josh only had merely the pair of tens. I felt he would have reraised right there with jacks or better, because he is an extremely aggressive player (to the point of overplaying his strong but not great huge holdings). In reaction to my raise, he had this "what could he have?" look. I was sure he was confused by the fact that I'd slow-played on third street.

The pot stood at $86 as our boards became (Q Q) 2 4 5 and (T? ??) T 6 7. Josh quickly checked.

I really felt at this point that Josh had yet to improve from the pair of tens. There was no other hand I could really put him on, and he clearly thought that I was weak. I decided to bet $50 into the $86 pot. Josh thought for just a moment and called, swelling the pot to $186.

Sixth street was (Q Q) 2 4 5 6 and (T? ??) T 6 7 2. I had picked up a gutshot, and didn't think Josh had improved. I didn't think he had a 2 kicker, particularly because one of them is dead in my hand. Two of the sixes are also dead. If he had T7 in the hole, I felt he would have raised earlier. In particular, I thought he would bet out when I hit another straight card, yet he checked again.

I was very confident that I held the better hand. I bet out $100 into the $186 pot, which left me with about $150 behind. Josh looked at me in that "strong means weak" sort of way, and said: Raise, $125 more!. What could this near-min-raise mean? I really read it as weak. I know min-raises often mean strength, but I knew that Josh knew he should protect two pair more than that. He just couldn't have two pair. The only straight possibility with an exact 89 in the hole. That didn't fit any of his betting patterns in this hand, nor did it match how he typically played draws. I was pretty sure he had on pair of tens. I had 4 live outs to a straight if he didn't.

I did have to consider for a moment that maybe he didn't have split tens, but instead had 77. I didn't think he would have slow played that on fifth street with trips, either. 22, of course, made no sense at all. If he had AA or KK, he'd have protected it more on fourth street. So, I settled for sure on split TT, and an unpaired kicker.

It was only $25 more for me to be all-in, so I said: Maybe I'm the biggest fish in the world, but I'm all-in. Of course, Josh called immediately, which I expected no matter what he held. I announced: I just have queens. Josh's jaw dropped to the floor, and said: You didn't raise early on, I couldn't think you had better than tens!. I was so glad; my heart pounded, and the river was sent face down. I caught a meaningless ace, and Josh looked distraught. He threw his river card face up. The dealer began to square the pot (Josh had me covered) and it was moving toward me. Josh shouted, Wait, I have a flush. As it turned out, he had started with T 8 and the river card he'd tossed across the table face-up was the 4.

The floorman of the club, a reasonably clueful player, berated us both. You dumbasses, he chided, didn't one of you think the other one had two pair? The whole table debated the hand for the next round, and Josh continually pointed out that he check-raised because he thought I was trying to to blow him out of the pot with nothing. I entered the debate a bit, and pointed out that I knew Josh had tens. I bitched a little bit about the slow-roll. Someone else pointed out that it wasn't Josh's intention to slow-roll — that Josh was as surprised as I was to find out he held a flush. I moved on from the point; don't tap on the glass, after all.

Yet, I am still wondering, did I do the right thing? Do I have to give him two pair and let his $125 bet take down the $286 pot? My pot odds were a little less than 1-to-3, so I don't have to be right all that often to make moving in correct. But, I'm just not that experienced of a stud player (neither, BTW, was Josh). So, was nick_marden right, when he counseled me on the phone that I played ever street correctly, and in saying: You just need to understand, Bradley; Josh is a fish.

Anyway, whether I played it right or not, I lost a quick $300+ in this hand. In a later post, I'll describe how I rebought and lost another $300 to Josh just few hands later in O/8.

Comments

almost there.

[(Anonymous)]

I realize this was a really long time ago, and I don't know if you play Stud anymore. But in case you do, you might find this advice useful.

Someone advised you that you played every street correctly. I don't exactly agree with this analysis. Instead of hoping that the 6 would fold on 3rd street to your flat call, I would have raised. Considering the pot odds your call offered him, he probably wasn't taking too much the worst of it if he was holding a three-straight or a small pair. At any rate, he folded on the next street, so you probably cared little whether or not he stuck around on 3rd. However, the raise would have been a signal to Josh that you had a hand that could beat a pair of 10s.

Your idea was to slow-play your queens. If you had held a better kicker (i.e., Jack or higher rather than a deuce), I would be inclined to agree with you. But not in this case. You correctly made him for the split pair of 10s. But you had no idea what his hole kicker was. I hope I'm not being confusing. My point is that if he's holding an Ace, King or Queen with the 10s, his pair becomes MUCH stronger than without. This is because if he pairs his kicker and you pair yours, he's way ahead of you. This is straight out of Chip Reese's Stud section of the original Supersytem.

Bottom line is that (Q-Q)-2 is not as strong against (10-x)-10 in Stud as pocket Queens are against pocket 10s in HE. The kicker really makes a difference. You're still ahead of your opponent, but this is not a hand that you can afford to slow-play.

I've been reading your blog (excuse me, poker journal) archives pretty much all day today, and I respect your body of work. I've learned a few things from reading your hand analyses. A few quick hits:

-Sorry about the anti-climatic WSoP run. What can you do? Hope you had fun.
-I like the way you've structured your home game. My blogging partner and I are considering using that as a template out here in Los Angeles (www.uclarounders.blogspot.com).
-It's good to have some intelligent discussion of cash game play out there -- not enough in the "hard" literature.

Good luck! And don't give up on Stud. Chip Reese's outline is the best I've seen around. I started playing $4-8 as my regular game at the Commerce after reading that, and I'm loving it.

Re: almost there.

[(Anonymous)]

one other thing (still me). i don't want to be misinterpreted. while I don't think this is a hand you can slow-play, you still want Josh to call a few bets while he's behind. I would advise making a nice value raise on 4th street (as you did -- perfect play there).

my play on 5th street would depend on my read of Josh. if i felt he thought he was behind, I would make the same bet ($50) on 5th St and then finish him off on the turn by moving in. I doubt he would be able to call that amount with a measly pair of 10s (again, assuming he thought he was behind). if my read told me he was fairly unsure of where he stood, I would make the pot bet on 5th st. this results in one of 2 things. either he folds here and you pick up the pot right then (unlikely), or he reluctantly calls. if he makes this call, you can make another pot bet on 6th st, representing the straight. unless he's a total donk, he has to fold here. and even if he doesn't, you're still ahead with your queens and a gutshot. you're giving him a tougher decision, and taking the bluff-raise play away from him. you're forcing him to consider if you actually may have him beat.

one could argue that you got it all in with your Queens vs. his 10s. but it turns out you weren't really that far ahead -- you also had the straight draw but he had the flush draw. he also could have paired any of his cards (assuming you didn't pair yours). i guess my main point is a Stud hand before the river often has a lot more outs than a hold em hand on the turn. so you want to put the pressure on your opponents earlier rather than later, because if they call on 5th st, there's a good chance they're going "down the river."