Learning Limit O/8

[shipitfish]

roryk asked me in a comment if I had any ideas on how to get better at limit O/8. I am quite flattered he asked me. I don't really know as much as I'd like to about the game. However, roryk isn't the first to ask, as I play in a home game with group of people trying to learn some mixed games. So, I guess I'll give my best shot at helping people learn limit O/8. I should note that while O/8 is probably tied with limit HE as my fourth best game (behind NL HE, PLO and triple draw lowball), I'm not an expert by any means, and I have absolutely no idea how to beat a game full of strong, experienced players. The money I've made both in limit HE and limit O/8 have been purely from basic knowledge and good game selection.

To get started with limit O/8, get a copy of Winning Omaha/8 Poker by Mark Tenner and Lou Krieger. I'm not a fan of Krieger's writing at all, as I think his instruction is too simplistic and filled with platitudes. The latter part of this book seems to be written by him, and is of that ilk. The earlier parts seem to be mostly Tenner, and are quite good. It's a beginner's book, and most advanced players familiar with another game will find parts of it slow. (The large section on calculating outs is largely useless to all, because everyone just memorizes the table anyway.) However, with those caveats, the book is probably a must read if you don't know a thing about limit O/8 yet.

Another work worth reading is the Baldwin/Gregorich Super System 2 chapter on limit O/8. Meanwhile, many people hold up Cappelletti as the foremost theorist on O/8, and he has a number of books out on the topic. I own one of them. The problem is that he is obviously a genius with cards (he's well known in the bridge world as well), but he's not particularly good at explaining things as well as he could. You have to be a pretty advanced O/8 player, I would guess, to get something from his work.

As you approach the reading, there a couple of things I suggest when considering limit O/8. First and foremost, if you are experienced player at HE in particular, you'll discover that the magic of naked aggression just doesn't work in O/8. The reason is that while it is difficult for even the worst of your opponents to flop a hand that can call you down with (say, middle pair in HE), in O/8, everyone flops some sort of draw most of the time. If you have even a few weak opponents in the game, your aggression just won't work to win enough pots. Even slightly loose limit O/8 games play more like extremely loose limit HE games, where you always need to connect with the flop to continue.

The next most important thing to remember is that winning half the pot in a split pot game is not a win, it's a mitigation of losses. Consider getting half the pot in limit O/8 akin to the small pots you pick up with small bluffs in NL HE on the flop. These are an important part of winning at the game, but they are not the most important part. In limit O/8, the ultimate goal is to scoop the whole pot, or, at worst, win three-quarters of it. All of your decisions should center around the consideration that you want to scoop (the split-pot game term for winning the entire pot yourself with a hand that plays both ways).

Fundamentally, Limit O/8 is a game of nut flushes, sets, and nut lows. Your goal is to have a made nut high that is at least a set, or to be drawing to the nut flush. Meanwhile, if there are two low cards on the flop, you want to simultaneously be drawing at the nut low, or, if you have an incredibly strong high holding, you can be after the second or third nut low.

One important note about sets: making sets with low cards is often useless. You are usually eating up important low cards in your hand to make that high holding, and it is very rare that you'll have a low set with no low draw possible on the flop. Add in the factor that you could be in a set-over-set situation if you are getting action. You may be left drawing slim at only one side of the pot at best. Therefore, fear pairs below 99 almost all the time in your hand; they do you little good even when they flop a set.

There is much debate in limit O/8 about the value of high cards. I generally believe that most coordinated high-card hands (all cards ten or above, reasonably coordinated with each other with regard to suits or pairs) are playable in middle and late position. I don't raise with them often; only when I think I can get heads up or three way with people holding obvious A2 and/or A3 holdings. High boards can often give you the lead in these situations.

Some authors argue these hands aren't as playable, because so many people call down with any flopped low draw and therefore you are almost always playing for half the pot. The way I see it, I think the hands are playable if you can read your opponents well on the flop and understand how far they will go with marginal low draws.

More than anything else, limit O/8, against loose opponents, is a game about building huge pots on the flop when you are holding nut draws in both directions, or holding the temporary nuts and a good low draw. I think that, unless you are an expert player, most of your EV in loose limit O/8 games comes from these scenarios.

I believe that the key to reading people in O/8 is being able to put people specifically on their low draw, and then extrapolating their possible high holdings/draws from the way the action went down. I always find that putting someone on a low holding (be it “no low draw at all”, “weak low draw”, “nut low draw&;rdquo;, or “uncounterfeitable nut low draw”) is easier to do first, and then you can tell what high holding they have after figuring out what two low cards they are playing.

Indeed, I think that it is easier to read people in limit O/8 than HE, because while (like weak limit HE players) most bad limit O/8 players are loose passive, you can get a clearer understanding on how bad of draws a player will call with. As you watch a hand, you eventually can quickly narrow the holdings of strong players, and easily find good draw value bet situations against the bad players. (For example, many bad O/8 players will call down with the second and third nut flush draw with a third nut low draw. When you find that guy, value bet away with your nut flush draw and nut low draw.)

So, I suppose that comes across more of a brain dump of things I think about when playing limit O/8. I think that you have to throw this sort of game plan out the window when most of the players have strong starting hand selection and are capable of reading reasonably well. I am a net loser big-time in limit O/8 games like that. But, if the game is loose, this sort of thinking and the books I mentioned should put you on the way.

Comments

[roryk.livejournal.com]

I've been playing PLO/8 and limit O/8 off and on for the past week or so online for small money to try to learn. I realize that PLO is usually played only for high, but I am sticking with O/8 for both for now. I have a feeling that the PLO/8 may actually be okay training for high limit limit O8 games but what do I know-- I can't even read the board. I'll get into why below.

1) In limit O/8 it seems like raising before the flop in a loose game is totally pointless. (It is sort of fun to be playing a new game because I can re-see my potential psychological biases. I played HE at Foxwoods yesterday and people were saying raising AK before the flop was pointless. I worry that I am having the same sort of psychological blindness in O8.) I have taken to raising very liberally on the button with my good and great hands because I figure if I am going to win a pot, I might as well win a big one. But the concept of value seems nebulous. Like, okay I have A2Q4 double suited on the button. I raise and flop a draw to the nut low and not much else; where is that value? I guess it comes from all of the people who fold when they dont hit with their 9723.

2) I fear getting quartered way too much. There isn't much to stay about that really, I will remove that bias from my mind eventually.

3) In PLO8, it seems like just-a-low sucks. I think that I would prefer to have high cards since it is easier to win a big pot when the low doesn't get there. They are also easy to get away from if the flop comes low cards so you are pretty much always making low draws pay dearly when you hit. It seems like that this might be the way higher limit games go. You might get to play more HU or shorthanded pots and the bigger cards would fare better. I have started only playing high hands or two-way low hands. In limit O8 hands like A2xx are not really great either, I kept finding myself getting quartered. But it's not so bad if there are like 8 people in preflop, to get quartered, yeah? I haven't run through the numbers. 8 people preflop, I limp the button. Let's say I flop the low but I am getting quartered for sure. It costs me 2.5 BB to call down. 4 BB in the pot preflop. If I am HU and getting quartered I risk 2.5 BB to win half of a 6.5 BB pot so it is correct to call down. Hm. I just get myself in these crappy situations where the high hand is betting and I am afraid if I overcall on the flop the other made low in the middle will raise the turn and get me out, that sort of thing. And that is why, I guess, redraws are important, so I can continue no matter what. Yeah?

[shipitfish.livejournal.com]

PLO/8 is such a different game from limit O/8. They are at least as different as limit HE and NL HE, if not moreso. PLO/8 is often about intimidating low draws with a high holding and promoting mediocre low draws by bluffing with a mediocre high, that sort of thing. But, I know almost nothing about PLO/8 other than what obvious general poker skills apply.

I used to never fear being quartered in limit O/8, and discovered it was a huge leak in my game. I often simply fold a naked A2 on the flop if there is heavy action or if there are only two opponents. It's not mandatory that you play the nut low draw to the river when it has no other prospects. You may do well to keep a healthy fear of quartering on the low.

Raising preflop in limit O/8, in most games, rarely thins the field, but you are quite right that saying it's pointless is like the player who won't raise with AA preflop in HE because ever calls anyway. The point is to build a huge pot when you are a favorite to win a lot of it. That said, I usually need to be holding A2 with a nut flush draw before I raise in most super-loose limit O/8 games. I don't typically raise with mere AA in O/8, PLO, and PLO/8. It has much better set value when they can't put you on it because you didn't raise preflop. Also, naked AA isn't much of a favorite in an O/8 game. Basically, build a huge pot preflop with raises when you think you are a favorite to flop a two-way hand or made hand/draw combo that you can ride to the river.

Raising to stop people from hitting the flop in O/8 isn't super important like it is in HE. You actually want people to hit the flop with you in O/8, because two pair and non-nut flush draws are so vulnerable. You want people to come along with hands looking to make two pair and non-nut flushes, because a lot of your profit comes when they take those hands too far.

I guess my biggest point, which I'll reiterate, is to that one should think of PLO/8 and limit O/8 as completely different games, because the skills and styles aren't particularly transferable, at least no more than HE skills are transferable to limit O/8.