shipitfish | Are Poker Communities Possible?

I started working on another post about River Street (I promise, it's coming soon, salvelinus), and it got me thinking about poker communities. River Street made my poker life into a community. I honestly have never felt part of a community in poker since then. These days, I am in poker as I am in most things — an outsider looking in.

Poker has become a solitary activity. I do play mostly online at the moment, simply because the EV is better. But, even when I was travelling weekly to Foxwoods or playing a few times a week at the games in NYC, I was generally not part of a specific community.

As an outsider, I often wonder if the poker communities that I see around me are genuine. Are people really friends in poker? How much time do they spend together? How much time do they spend talking about the game? Are their friendships primarily outside of poker or is poker the central commonality that holds the relationships together? I admit that while I can often make great reads of people and their tendencies at the poker table, relationships — even those in poker — have usually remained completely mysterious.

My closest poker-playing friends are simply not as deeply into it as I am (e.g., W.D. and nick_marden), and our relationships are primarily defined in commonalities that are wholly outside of poker. So, I naturally wonder what I'm missing that these seemingly tight nit groups of poker players have. Do players in these groups have an edge over the solitary, self-motivated player? Is there more to be learned by having a group than going it alone? Is poker more fun and less lonely that way?

Oddly, I got seriously into poker primarily as a way to meet people outside of the computer science world and expand my horizons. But, ironically, I don't meet many people anymore in poker. Sure, just like on a plane ride, I meet the occasional “single-serving friend” at the tables, but I rarely ever see that person again. I am certainly not finding friends easily in poker anymore; I am mostly just showing up to take their money.

From time to time, I have thought about getting out there and just building a poker community myself. I was reminded of this when Howard Lederer talked on The Circuit recently about the group that came out of the old Mayfair club right here in NYC. They became some of the best in the world because they came together as part of a group that learned from each other. The NYC poker clubs of today are too transient now to make that happen. Nevertheless, the idea of forming a poker study group has crossed my mind more than twice. I wonder, though, if it would be worth the effort. I doubt that anyone in NYC but me is enough of a poker geek to show up regularly to sit around and talk about poker without even playing it. But, I'm still thinking about it, anyway.

As for online “communities”, like the 2+2 fora, such things aren't for me anymore. As a lifelong computer geek, I've already spent far too much of my life substituting online venues for real life interaction, and I resolved long ago not to do that anymore. It's real life or burst, at least in that arena.

Threaded | Flat

I have a group of people I chat with on AIM about hands and strategy and what not. It is nice to get immmediate feedback from players who are skilled. It is also important to seek out players who play better than you do, make friends with them, and learn from them. It is usually a give-and-take scenario where you have one aspect of the game you are good at and can help them with and they, in turn, can help you with another aspect of the game.

I also have a small group of people whom I email all of the time who are separate from the AIM group.

I think there are multiple problems with real life interaction. The first is that most people who play poker are not the kind of people I would like to interact with for the most part. The second is that if you interact with someone in real life, you may get into sticky situations where they would like to borrow money from you or something. The third is that it is a lot more difficult to find a highly skilled person in real life because there are less of them. The fourth is that generally people in real life are less available than people online. The fifth is that it is a lot easier to form a cohesive group of people online, through mailing lists or a chat room or something than it is in real life. The sixth is that you generally will be playing against your friend in real life, and if you are like me and have a certain way of playing at the table, it may interfere with it.

I think there are more, but I think on the whole dealing with people online is a lot better. At any rate, having a support group is important for when the times are rough.

I picture forming a poker group like this:
I think the way to form a group would be best a combination of a home game and those same players going to clubs together. Maybe not playing against each other at the clubs, but maybe a few at this table a few there and two-three at that table etc...

Then at the home games, they would be more social and most of the talk would be about each other's play and the play of those at the club (or casino). And particular reads on a player's style, moves that work against one player but not another and why...
I don't think you're going to get a bunch of people to sit around and talk poker, but if you had an informal / social home game going on, broken up with group trips to clubs and casinos, it's likely that the majority of the table talk will be poker related, especially if you start the home game with the intention of making it for talking about play.

Damn, I wish I lived in NYC, I would be the second charter member!

I think this is really situational. I've been playing at Foxwoods fairly regularly this year and have become "friendly" with many of the locals in the NL games. I wouldn't say that I am friends with any of them though. I have a good work and personal friend who occasionally steps into the same game that I'm playing. To be honest, I don't like him being at the same table as me since my NL game is much stronger than his, and I have taken a lot of pots from him. He doesn't mind losing to me (I don't think), but I don't like doing that to friends. Just the way I'm wired - I'd rather win money from total strangers and spend time with friends doing constructive, fun stuff.

BTW - Get working on that Riverstreet retrospective! ;-)

You should have come to Vegas. If you're skeptical, read this report from the first Vegas gathering in December 2004:

http://www.kebzweb.com/2004/12/afterglowthought_1.html

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