shipitfish | Not A Favorite at 10/20. I Belong at 3/6. Ship It, Fish! (Reply)

Yesterday, I had losing session at the Foxwoods $10/$20 limit HE. I am completely unhappy about my play. I lost $500, or 25 big bets. However, I was down 40 or so big bets at one point, and hitting a two outer was what yielded my partial recovery.

So, I've written up some hands, and I would really appreciate comments from the experienced limit players who read my journal. Greg often says that the $10/$20 is the toughest limit HE at Foxwoods, but I am pretty sure this game wasn't actually tough -- at least the second table I got to. I think if I were a good enough player, I could have beaten it. I am sure that most of you could beat a $10/$20 where on average six people were seeing the flop, usually for a raise, and where usually three or more saw the turn.

Hand 0: JJ at the Tight Table No Good

However, at the first table where I was sat, it was a pretty tight-aggressive game. Usually, the flop was seen three-handed or heads-up, and usually for a raise. I decided I was only going to stay in this game until they called me for the $5/$10 game, or if I magically built a little $20/$40 session bankroll.

While I was waiting for one of those things to happen (the latter being highly unlikely), I caught J J in middle position. It was raised, and cold-called in front of me, and I made it three bets. We saw the flop of T 6 4 three-handed with 9 SBs in the pot.

At this point I was unsure if I had the best hand. Given the preflop action, I think it's unlikely someone has flopped a flush, unless it's the nuts (with, say, A Q or A J). I decided that I had to play a big pair as the best hand unless I found out otherwise, though, because I had to charge any club draws that were out. I bet the flop and got two callers and saw a 2 on the turn with 6 BBs in the pot.

They again checked to me. I figured that I had to bet again. I expected to be check raised, but the possibility that the naked A and the naked K were calling me down in two hands was certainly a possibility. I was prepared to fold to a check-raise when I bet, but I just got two callers, leaving the pot at 9 BBs. We checked down the river (another blank), and I was shown the other two jacks, and pocket kings without the K. The dude with the jacks made fun of me for betting down to the river with merely jacks and no club. But, the slow-played kings were just a total surprise. If he woke up with a big pair, I would have thought it to be queens.

I suppose the early position jacks dude was right; I should have check-folded after the flop. I think I could have just checked this hand on the flop and folded on the turn. Why should have I pushed, assuming they were drawing against me, when they could have very well had me beat? I suppose that was 1.5 BB mistake.

Hand 1: Moved To a Loose Table, Folded For Hours, Then Top Two Pair

I moved to a loose table and proceeded to get dealt unplayable starting hands for the first three hours. I saw a total of three flops in three hours, and missed all of them and folded. The game was quite loose -- a mixture of some loose-aggressive bluff-addicts who bordered on hyper-aggressive, and some old-fashioned calling stations. I watched every hand for hours and filled away tendencies, waiting for a playable hand.

I suppose out of frustration, I limped in with A9o from the SB when only three people had limped. I felt that since I hadn't played a hand in a few hours, that I would get some respect if an A flopped, and the two calling stations in the pot were paying off most top pairs with middle pair almost every hand, so I figured that I had good implied odds for a weak ace. Also, everyone was raising with AJ and up, so only AT could outkick me.

I flopped top two pair with A-6-9 rainbow. I bet out, fearing a likely check-around, and got two callers. The turn was a 7, and I was check-raised by Mr. Bluff Addict, who tended toward hyperaggressive. There were 8 BBs in the pot, and I was almost positive I was way ahead of the third player in the pot (I had him on a weak ace), but Mr. Bluff Addict's raise was a mystery. While he was often overplaying top pair (with hands like T7 on a straightened board) for a cap on the flop, he rarely raised the turn, even to bluff. OTOH, I felt the reason I didn't see him raising the turn was because he took such control on the flop by three-betting, so I realized this was the first time I'd even seen him raise on the turn.

I decided that A7 was a possible hand. I figured if that wasn't it, he'd made a straight with T8, or had a set. I knew that I would get an overcall here and on the turn and river by the Calling Station's ace, so I called for 2-to-13 (turn and river). The river was a 2, and I saw a set of sixes from the Bluff Addict and A3o from the Calling Station.

Was 1-to-6.5 enough to call him down? I thought A7 was possible, because he'd been playing pretty loose, but T8 and 66 were both reasonable possibilities (he would have raised with 99 or AA preflop, and would not have seen the turn with 77). Anyway, I made a 2 BB mistake there. Since I hadn't seen him raise the turn before, I had to give him credit for a big hand. Does he have a big hand more than 80% of the time in this spot? Probably. I think I could fold.

Hand 2: Another Wasted BB on a Flopped Two Pair

A little while later, I caught 4

in the big blind. I checked after a field of five limped. The flop fell 4

. I check-raised Mr. Loose Aggressive, whose bet had cleared the field. We saw the turn with 5 BBs in the pot. The turn was disaster for me -- a 6

-- but I bet out anyway relatively quickly, thinking to myself: "I've made my flush". I was immediately raised, and thought for a few moments and decided to fold. The player was loose-aggressive, but he must be beating middle two pair on a board like that. He was surprised that I folded, and showed his hand (and, by the way he showed it, he obviously was thinking that he was showing a bluff). He held the 5

. I found it quite interesting that he thought I was beating his hand in that spot, and that he'd successfully bluffed me. I think he thought that I had flopped a small straight and he could semi-bluff me off it when the flush got there.

Anyway, I wasted a big bet on the turn. Surely, he had something that improved over two small pair when the turn came the way it did. I could easily check-fold and save a bet.

Hand 3: My Read Was Right, and I Had Odds, But So What?

The next round, I got dealt A 9 in the cut-off. I limped into a pot from the cut-off with three limpers ahead of me. The big blind checked, and I flopped the nut flush draw when it came K 6 7. I checked it, figuring there was likely a king out to bet, and thus the pot would build. Someone did bet, and I got a good read that he had KJ or KT, as this relatively tight player would have surely raised with KQ or better, wouldn't play any other kings but those, and wouldn't bet without at least top pair. I was the only caller, and we saw the turn with a little less (due to rake) than 4 BBs in the pot.

The turn fell 8. I felt this was a huge card for me. I was pretty sure this guy had that medium king, which means that the remaining three aces, nine clubs and the six non-club tens and fives were surely outs. When he bet his king, I decided to semi-bluff raise. I was getting pure odds of about 1-to-2.50 on the bet. If he called, I was getting 1-to-3 when I was only a 1-to-1.6 dog for 18 outs. In a way, it was a raise for value (so I thought at the time). He called, and there wasn't much value in it when the 2 fell and I had a worthless Ace-high that couldn't bluff him off his king. I was sure he'd made a decision to call me down for 1-to-9 odds with his king almost every time, so I didn't bluff at the river. I checked and the table looked at me amazed when his K T was good and I mucked. I suppose roryk will tell me I'm being results-oriented, and I do see the math working. But, math aside, it sure doesn't feel positive-EV when I saw that two of spades fall knowing he'll call a river-bluff. I won't go as far as saying I wasted BBs here, as I see the positive-EV, but perhaps a better player would not have been so aggressive knowing there is no bluff equity at the river when the draw misses.

Hand 4: Another Two Hours, One Starting Hand, 15 Outs No Good

I folded (and check-folded my BB) for the next two hours. I felt like I was being blinded off in a tournament. I had actually blinded off about five BBs at one point before I played a hand, when I picked up A K in the small blind. It had been limped then raised behind me, and three people had called the raise cold. I decided to three-bet, because I felt I would knock the loose-aggressive big-blind off his hand, and perhaps lose the first limper. To my partial surprise, Mr. Loose Aggressive in the big blind capped it (which he'd do with any pair above sevens or any suited big cards), and to my amazement we saw the flop six-handed with 24 SBs in the pot.

I didn't really want to flop a pair, because I had to give someone credit for a big pair, and I was worried I might be up against a set while I was way behind with top pair. I was elated when the flop came Q T 3. I decided not to bet out, which I would have done for value in most situations. However, I was sure anyone with a naked Q would raise my bet in this game, and I preferred a big field to see the turn.

It was indeed bet, and even raised to me. I thought about three-betting, but I really wanted callers. And, cold-calling raises on the flop was basically "standard practice" in this game, so it wouldn't look suspicious. I cold-called, as did Mr. Loose Aggressive, and one other behind him. The original bettor called, and we saw the 5 turn with about 16 BBs in the pot.

I checked again, and the flop-raiser bet. We saw the river -- a useless 3 four-handed with 20 BBs in the pot. It checked around, and the button (the flop raiser) showed Q 2, Mr. Loose Aggressive (the preflop-capper) showed K J and the rest mucked upon seeing the queen.

So, the aces weren't my outs, but I didn't think they were during the hand because I was sure someone flopped at least two pair with QT. I thought I was calling with 12 outs to the nuts. Turns out that Kings were good too (unless someone had KT), and a jack was dead in Mr. Loose Agressive's hand, so in hindsight, I had 15 outs.

And let's review: Q2s on the button sees a cap and raises with top pair on that flop. KJs is the pre-flop capper. And, by the way, what does everyone else have that they call down with that can't beat kickerless top-pair? Random suited diamond hands (guess I only had 11 or 13 outs)? I sat there thinking (a) how is this not a good game and (b) how am I losing in this game. Sitting here now, I am thinking that if any of those 15 outs come, which I'm a favorite to catch by the river from the flop, I'm basically even for this session! But, at the same time, I look at my recent results and have to admit: I'm over my head; my results say I lose in $10/$20 over time.

Hand 5: Some Starting Hands Before I Have To Leave, But a Stupid Play with AKo

I started to get some starting hands an hour before I had to leave. I saw a flop with QJ from middle position, called a raise for odds in a large multi-way pot, but failed to connect. Then, I caught AKo against the Bluff Addict. He'd limp-called my raise from early/middle position when I was in the cut-off and a raggedy flop of 5-4-2 rainbow fell. He bet and I raised, and he called. I figured he had played something goofy and paired, because he would have three-bet me there with an overpair or two pair. (I was prepared to fold to that three-bet, but he just called.)

I don't think my flop raise was right; the pot was small (only 7 SBs when I raised into it). I guess I felt my effectively tight-weak table image that all that folding had yielded might account for something. Obviously, it didn't and I wasted a bet. I checked through the Q on the turn, and when the T came on the river, making a three-flush. He bet. I stupidly called with the nut-no-pair, and was shown the 5 6. That was absolutely a wasted big bet on the river. (What bluff do I catch? He's probably bluffing with the best hand in that spot anyway.) I am very skeptical that the raise on the flop was right. This guy wasn't the type that liked being bullied out of pots, regardless of the fact that I had played like five hands in an matter of four hours. I'd wasted 1.5 BBs.

Hand 6: Overplayed Pocket Tens

A few hands later I caught black tens in middle position. I raised, and the big blind -- a calling station who also liked to make fancy plays -- defended. The flop fell 3 3 6. He checked, I bet, and he called. We saw the turn (5 ) with 3 BBs in the pot. He checked, I bet, and he check-raised. I faced a odds of 1-to-3 to call to the river. I had never seen this guy check-raise on a bluff or even a semi-bluff before, so I think I had to put him on a 3 or something better. I guess because I hadn't played many hands, and I knew I had a tight-weak table image, I felt that I should call him down. This was certainly a two BB mistake, because there was no evidence to suggest he'd check-raise the turn with anything less than a three. Indeed, I don't think he was even really the type that would notice my apparent tight-weak play this session. I called down and got shown 3 7 after I called the bet when the A fell on the river. I should have folded to the check raise on the turn. My heads up play sucks.

Hand 7: My First AA Gets Lucky, But Badly Played

About 15 minutes before I had to leave, I got AA for the first time for the session. An early player limped, Mr. 3-7-Suited raised, and I three-bet. We saw the flop three-handed with 9 SBs in the pot. It was checked to me when Q-9-5 rainbow showed, and I bet. I got called by both. I had a feeling they both had queens, and I thought 3-7-Suited might have AQ. However, I was a bit concerned because I would have expected him to check-raise or bet out with AQ on the flop. His call indicated he was either beating AQ, or had substantially weaker than that. I was a bit unsure what he'd raise with before the flop and then only call on the flop. All the hands I could think of were beating me.

The turn came another 5, putting two hearts on the board. They both checked to me. I bet again and 3-7-Suited check-raised after the fellow in-between us had called. I was quite sure the latter had a medium queen, so I go really worried what 3-7-Suited had. He liked the "check-call, then check-raise" move with his big hands. I had to give him credit. I got worried I had a two-outer. I suppose out of frustration of being out-flopped, I decided to call down with the pot laying me 2-to-11. I actually think was a terrible move. I had to have a two-outer here. There was basically no question. He must have 99 or QQ. I lied to myself and thought: "Well, he could have a good queen and picked up a heart draw on the turn". I was bull-shitting myself.

My two outer hit. The river was the A. 3-7-Suited bet, I raised, and he quickly reraised. I thought about the possibility for pocket fives for a moment, decided that he couldn't have raised before the flop from early position with fives, and I reraised. He called, saying "If you have aces, more power to you". I quietly showed my hand and the dealer shipped it. (Ship it to the fish.)

The guy began berating me for calling the check-raise on the turn. Mr. Bluff Addict began saying how the situation was destine to happen because "he [with a scoff, referring to me] can't lay down aces in that spot, and that you [no scoff to 3-7-Suited] won't lay down queens to a three-bet". 3-7-Suited kept ranting, and told the story again to a player who had just returned from the bathroom.

I finally said, "It was karma for out-flopping me with 3-7-suited earlier." Then he says, "oh, it's just another hand, why don't you shut up?". I decided that I wasn't above taking some good advice from a jerk, so I did shut up.

I left about five minutes later when the blinds came to me, and he demanded: "Where are you going with my chips?" I responded: "I gave it back to you -- your precious seat change button, right?" (He and I had had a disagreement earlier after I asked for the seat change button once he'd moved seats. He refused to give it to me, saying he hadn't gotten his preferred seat and, since, no one wanted the seat he'd moved to, it therefore didn't require that he use his seat change button to go to a seat no one else wanted. I asked the dealer for the next seat change button in sequence, and she demanded his instead (to my surprise), and that got him angry.) The guy, seeing that I was definitely leaving and he couldn't convince me to stay, started relaying the story of the hand to another person who had also returned since then from a break.

This was all typical poker silliness and whining, but the truth is that I should have folded to that check-raise on the turn. There's no way I am better than a 1-to-5.1 dog in that situation. What else can he check-raise me with other than something that's beating aces badly? I am such a fish. Ship it, fish!

Final Tally of Clearly Wasted BBs: 8.0. That's $160.

Nothing Above What Lee Jones Covers

The truth is that while I might have good starting hand selection and reasonable on-the-flop play, I'm a shitty HE player on the turn and river, both in limit and NL. I don't belong playing beyond $3/$6 games and $25 buy-in PL/NL. I've been over my head for a long time, and it's about time I admitted it to myself, and started eking it out at the lower limits rather than siphoning money from those games into the middle-limit games.

Tell me, dear readers. I have never lied in my journal; I lie about what I had at the table or what I was thinking, but never here. I learned long ago that denial is a dangerous thing. And, if I'm honest, my logs say I have never beaten a $10/$20 game consistently, and that I am break-even at $5/$10. roryk told me once he didn't understand why I wasn't playing at the highest levels yet. I don't understand it myself, but I have to be honest and say the results say I don't belong there. The edges are obviously just too thin, and I make stupid mistakes (like with the TT and the unpaired AK that cost me a few bets here and there), and there goes my profit. I make a few more of those mistakes, and I'm a losing player. I can't reach the perfection necessary to beat these games. More power to those of you out there that can. I need to learn my limitations and stick around the baby limits, or quit poker altogether.