shipitfish | PL Stud Hand in Boston

While I was in Boston in January, I visited a downtown poker club. It's run by a fellow who used to work at The E. Club in NYC. As I understand it, he commutes down to Boston a few times a week and has some locals who help him run it.

I discovered that folks from the old River Street crowd, such as Ken come by there occasionally. I saw none of the old group on the two nights I played there, except for nick_marden who joined me the second night.

The club was small, with only three tables. As is typical on weekend nights at these sorts of clubs, the one running game was short-handed on this Saturday. I arrived and they were playing $2/$4 limit mixed games, which was great fun and I was happy to play.

The local fish, a fellow named Josh, arrived a while later and immediately bought two grand in chips, hoping a big game would get started. He sat down in our little limit game, which was comprised mostly of off-duty dealers and that night's floorman. Josh got "bored" and asked for the stakes to be changed.

We agreed, after some argument between a newbie dealer and the floorman that PL is too complicated for this n00b to deal. It was settled; we would play PL mixed games, including Stud, O/8, and HE, with $1/$2 blinds. I was excited to work on my mixed game PL play. It's frankly my preferred form of poker, but something that's tough to find in the USA and online on a regular basis.

We moved blinds and small pots around for about half an hour, when the following hand came up during a stud round. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has some PL stud experience to tell me if I simply misplayed this hand. After much thought and input from nick_marden, I decided that I played it correctly, but I'd appreciate hearing arguments on the subject.

My First $300 Stud Hand

We all had about our initial buy-in of $300, with Josh having a bit more (maybe $375 or so). I caught the bring-in with 2, and threw in the $1 without looking. I looked around to see a 6 , a 5, and a T, and a K showing. The 6 called, and Josh with the T raised the pot size ($4). My hole cards, to my surprise, were Q Q. I thought for a moment about my next move. I had a strong feeling that Josh had a split pair of tens, but wasn't totally sure yet. I was only sure that he had at least that. I decided to call and slowplay, hoping the 6, a very tight player, would fold.

The 6 unfortunately called behind me. I caught the 4, the 6 caught a 5, and Josh's T got a 6. Josh bet out $10, and I decided that I had to get heads up, and raised $25 more. The tight player quickly folded and Josh called.

I was sure at this point that Josh only had merely the pair of tens. I felt he would have reraised right there with jacks or better, because he is an extremely aggressive player (to the point of overplaying his strong but not great huge holdings). In reaction to my raise, he had this "what could he have?" look. I was sure he was confused by the fact that I'd slow-played on third street.

The pot stood at $86 as our boards became (Q Q) 2 4 5 and (T? ??) T 6 7. Josh quickly checked.

I really felt at this point that Josh had yet to improve from the pair of tens. There was no other hand I could really put him on, and he clearly thought that I was weak. I decided to bet $50 into the $86 pot. Josh thought for just a moment and called, swelling the pot to $186.

Sixth street was (Q Q) 2 4 5 6 and (T? ??) T 6 7 2. I had picked up a gutshot, and didn't think Josh had improved. I didn't think he had a 2 kicker, particularly because one of them is dead in my hand. Two of the sixes are also dead. If he had T7 in the hole, I felt he would have raised earlier. In particular, I thought he would bet out when I hit another straight card, yet he checked again.

I was very confident that I held the better hand. I bet out $100 into the $186 pot, which left me with about $150 behind. Josh looked at me in that "strong means weak" sort of way, and said: Raise, $125 more!. What could this near-min-raise mean? I really read it as weak. I know min-raises often mean strength, but I knew that Josh knew he should protect two pair more than that. He just couldn't have two pair. The only straight possibility with an exact 89 in the hole. That didn't fit any of his betting patterns in this hand, nor did it match how he typically played draws. I was pretty sure he had on pair of tens. I had 4 live outs to a straight if he didn't.

I did have to consider for a moment that maybe he didn't have split tens, but instead had 77. I didn't think he would have slow played that on fifth street with trips, either. 22, of course, made no sense at all. If he had AA or KK, he'd have protected it more on fourth street. So, I settled for sure on split TT, and an unpaired kicker.

It was only $25 more for me to be all-in, so I said: Maybe I'm the biggest fish in the world, but I'm all-in. Of course, Josh called immediately, which I expected no matter what he held. I announced: I just have queens. Josh's jaw dropped to the floor, and said: You didn't raise early on, I couldn't think you had better than tens!. I was so glad; my heart pounded, and the river was sent face down. I caught a meaningless ace, and Josh looked distraught. He threw his river card face up. The dealer began to square the pot (Josh had me covered) and it was moving toward me. Josh shouted, Wait, I have a flush. As it turned out, he had started with T 8 and the river card he'd tossed across the table face-up was the 4.

The floorman of the club, a reasonably clueful player, berated us both. You dumbasses, he chided, didn't one of you think the other one had two pair? The whole table debated the hand for the next round, and Josh continually pointed out that he check-raised because he thought I was trying to to blow him out of the pot with nothing. I entered the debate a bit, and pointed out that I knew Josh had tens. I bitched a little bit about the slow-roll. Someone else pointed out that it wasn't Josh's intention to slow-roll — that Josh was as surprised as I was to find out he held a flush. I moved on from the point; don't tap on the glass, after all.

Yet, I am still wondering, did I do the right thing? Do I have to give him two pair and let his $125 bet take down the $286 pot? My pot odds were a little less than 1-to-3, so I don't have to be right all that often to make moving in correct. But, I'm just not that experienced of a stud player (neither, BTW, was Josh). So, was nick_marden right, when he counseled me on the phone that I played ever street correctly, and in saying: You just need to understand, Bradley; Josh is a fish.

Anyway, whether I played it right or not, I lost a quick $300+ in this hand. In a later post, I'll describe how I rebought and lost another $300 to Josh just few hands later in O/8.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

1: I actually like the club. It's better run than some of the NYC clubs, I must admit. Mainly, I felt the staff were not likely to sell out their players, and I often don't have that feeling in NYC.

2: While I didn't put this in the post, I chose not to bet the pot at that moment because even though I was confident in my read later on, my read at that moment was, "I think I have the best hand, but if Josh raises in this spot, he's beating me". Once he failed to raise that $50 bet, I got really sure about my read. If Josh had raised there, I knew I had an easy fold. I wanted to be sure I didn't get too deep in the pot on fifth street. Also, since I had no draw at that point, I wanted the possibility to fold on sixth street if josh caught an overcard to my queens, paired on board, or even if he caught a spade.

In some ways, it was that total blank on Josh's board on sixth street that married me to the hand. While I can't remember my exact thinking, I know that at least subconsciously, I was sure I didn't want to swell the pot too much on fifth.

That's one of the challenges I have in the little bit of PL stud that I've played. It's usually tough, given the typical stack sizes in a $1/$2 blind game, to fail to become somewhat pot committed on sixth street. I have this gut feeling that I want to make it to sixth street still able to fold if things get hairy. I bet that's where my subconscious mind got the idea of betting only $50.

I think betting any less than that is a mistake, but I do, even upon review, think that it is really the sweet spot for a fifth street bet with a vulnerable hand that I could very well have to dump on sixth. After all, Josh has at least thirteen "scare card outs" (A's, K's, 6's, 7's, and T's) that are going to force me to check and/or fold to a bet on sixth street.

This is a concept of keeping the pot small with a vulnerable hand to see one more card is one I picked up from flop play in HE. While most poker authors and theorist talk about "charging the draws" on the flop, some also recommend from time to time, if you feel heavy flop action will leave you pot committed, to let a cheap card come on the turn and then commit yourself when it's safe and your drawing opponents have much worse odds.

So, why bet $50 instead of check? Well, I knew Josh would check-raise if he was winning, so I get away from the hand right there, and I can firm up my read if he just calls and catches poorly on sixth.

Does this logic seem reasonable?

I'm the last person to give you stud advice, but I think I can follow the poker reasoning. I think your reasoning sounds about right regarding the pot size and your confidence in your read of Josh.

Also, (in my limited poker experience) I've never seen a stud game played above limit. It seems that with so many betting rounds, it'd be easy to end up all-in frequently if you make it past fifth street. Is PL stud common?

Limit poker is nearly non-existent outside of the USA. You are quite correct, that in the USA (and online, since most online sites are USA-centric, even if the servers live on Indian reservations and off-shore municipalities), that games other than Omaha and HE are rarely played in a PL/NL structure. Outside the USA, they play most things PL, including all the games we see in limit structures here, Stud, Stud/8, O/8, lowball draw, etc.

I have played PL stud only in home games (it was popular in Ashley Adams home games in Boston) and at the Aviation Club in Paris. I was at first amazed that the folks at the Boston club wanted to play, but given its "home game feel", it was not terribly surprising.

You are quite right that the many betting rounds quickly lead to getting pot committed, particularly if you are mixing the game with flop based games that require (relatively) smaller stacks. This is why I want to see if I can make it to sixth street without getting too much out there.

Sklansky and Malmuth argue that even in limit stud, the bankroll requirements are high because the luck factor is bigger than any other form of poker played regularly today. Lots of betting rounds with lots of cards mean lots of opportunities to get lucky. There is no doubt it's a high variance game.

OTOH, keep in mind that stud has a lot more automatic decisions compared to flop based games. The range of hands you have to consider someone having in, say, HE, is much larger than in stud. Plus, you see much of your opponents whole hand and you aren't sharing cards. So, the times that a card comes to simultaneously improves both you and your opponent are rare, whereas in HE and Omaha, it's very common.

hrm interesting. I'm trying to learn other forms of poker. I'm the steriotypical internet NLHE tool. I want to move to 2-7 TD. I think it's because it's so different.

Thought you might find this interesting: http://www.cardsquad.com/2006/02/07/nyc-poker-raids/

There's a link to a 2+2 forum on the subject, 2+2 is blocked here at work so I'm not sure if there's anything interesting there.

Yeah, this logic seems fine. Your read is obviosuly more refined than I saw in the original post. My thoughts were:

1. You'd really like to take this pot down right now.
2. Josh might perhaps sense weakness in your $50 bet and realize a raise would win this pot.

I don't necessarily agree that you're "keeping the pot small." Really what you're doing is trying not to get committed with such a vulnerable hand, which funnily enough is exactly what wound up happening.

I was also influenced by my initial througts that calling a pot sized bet from a reasonable player with a pair of tens on fifth street seems like suicide. And this seems like much, much more than overplaying.

I'm going to take a longer look at this later, but I'm curious about the differencein pot size and stack size on that 5th street bet.

Again, like I said, I know basically nothing about stud.

Honestly, I do think Josh's whole play was suicide. Like many fish, he's aggressive at the wrong times. He could have check-raised me on fourth or fifth, or even bet out one of those rounds and probably won the hand when I statistically had the better of him. I can't put him on rolled up tens or other such hands because he would have slow played early. His idea, I think, was to let me "bluff" at him over and over, and he was going to catch me, but then got scared when I got that gutshot on board. Yet, this hand troubles me so; I want to keep telling myself I made a read like a pro and played it just right, but losing (which was just statistically unlucky, of course, given the true cards), combined with the fact that I am so inexperienced at PL stud makes me wonder if that's just a bad case of poker ego.

PL Stud Hand in Boston

My First $300 Stud Hand

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